Monday, April 26, 2010

God has a plan for all fetuses.

(Possible trigger warning for miscarriages/stillbirth. I do not mean any disrespect or harm to any reader.)

It's true. God has a plan for all fetuses.

But not every plan includes being born.


Some fetuses are meant to be born, raised by loving and almost perfect parents, become doctors or scientists, find cures for diseases and save lives.

Other fetuses are meant to be miscarried, or born still. They are mourned or not mourned, always remembered or intentionally forgotten.

Why? We don't know why. God's plan is bigger than all of us, bigger than we can see. We don't know why God runs the world the way He does.


Abortion (the intentional termination of a pregnancy, not necessarily the current day procedure) is obviously a part of God's plan. There are cases in the Bible of God's chosen people killing pregnant women and their fetuses (Numbers 31:15-17, Genesis 38:24) and God's priests causing an abortion if a woman is pregnant after cheating (Numbers 5:11-31). If you can't believe that, one must at least recognize that miscarriage (spontaneous abortion) is a part of God's plan. God controls nature- he designed it, and us- and if He never planned on miscarriages happening, they wouldn't happen.


When antichoicers say "God has a plan for your [fetus]!" they're trying to trick women. Trick women into thinking that God always plans for a fetus to be born. Or that God plans for their specific fetus to be born, and the woman is going to mess up that plan. But God is smarter than that! He knows us; He knows what choices we will make in this life. God's plans coincide with the choices we will make. God would not put, say, the future curer of cancer inside a woman who plans to abort if she ever gets pregnant.


So don't think that you can't make your own choice because 'God has a plan.' God's plans work with you, not against you. Whether you abort or carry to term, God walking the path with you.

50 comments:

  1. How does free will fit into this?

    I mean when Jonah ran away because he didn't want to preach to Ninevah, there was a boat waiting at the dock. So he could rationalize, God must want him to take the boat because is so fortuitously appeared.

    This sounds like rationalization. Anyway, if you just mean that God can still achieve His aims despite human actions, okay. However, God is not following our plans. He is not working to make what we want work out for us. He works His own plan.

    When your five year old dies from cancer God is walking with you despite the fact that you did everything in your power to save your child. If you had done nothing, would you say that God's plans work with you? God is not your buddy. He is your master and judge. He will not save us from our mistakes in this life. He will save those who recognize that they are wrong and admit it.

    The idea that you can make your own choices and God will walk with you is false. You must obey.

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  2. Anonymous, in terms of following God's laws- yes, you must obey.

    However, having an abortion isn't breaking God's laws. Neither is, say, taking the bus to work instead of your car (not to say those two things are the same, just an example). So, say perhaps that God's plan involves you seeing a car accident and getting out to help the people. But you decide to take the bus instead, and the car accident is not on the bus's route. God doesn't just go "Oh, well, too bad." He'll work His plan around our free will- so maybe the bus takes a different route that day, and you still see the car accident and still go help them.


    Of course, even if you break God's laws, He is still there, waiting for you to ask forgiveness.


    You said: "Anyway, if you just mean that God can still achieve His aims despite human actions, okay. "

    That is basically what I meant. :-)

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  3. The view that abortion doesn't break God's law not to murder is not typical among Christian scholars. Ultimately it doesn't matter what they think, only what God thinks. Whether many or few think abortion is not murder also does not matter.

    Biblical and empirical evidence that not every baby makes it to birth doesn't imply that women are free to decide for themselves whether to have the baby. The two above citations of killing the unborn were specific punishments, not the individual choices of women. Killing pregnant women deprives the conquerors of slaves and concubines which undermine family and community unity and deprives the vanquished any legacy. Killing a child of adultery deprives the adulterer his issue.

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  4. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  5. Anonymous #2, punishments or not, those examples were examples of abortions. I did clarify that I was speaking in general, not about the current day procedure or how women go about choosing an abortion.

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  6. Your passages are pro abortion talking points that have been addressed by Christian scholars and commentators. Thou shalt not kill is God's law. Elective abortion is intentionally killing a human, regardless the stage of development. You are essentially saying that we can sin all we want, and God will be ok with our sin. Of course the sovereign God of the universe knows which fetuses will survive pregnancy, and which will not. This does not mean those who commit abortion will not be accountable for their sin.

    Every action we undertake as humans is part of God's plan. That would include sin. But the bible clearly teaches, according to Paul,

    "What then, shall we continue to sin that grace may abound? GOD FORBID!!!"

    and Jesus, to the woman at the well, "Go and SIN NO MORE"

    If you can continually and consistently promote, encourage, and defend abortion, you are not a Christian. If you are a Christian, God will not let you continue in your error. You are in danger of committing blasphemy. Remember, It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the Living God.

    I can say to you all day that the number 5 is both an even number, and an odd number. Because I say it does not make it so. Because you want to twist Christianity to fit in abortion, doesn't mean you can.

    Tell me, if you are a Christian, what does that mean? Tell me, what is the 'gospel'? How did you become a Christian? And since you won't answer, tell me why you won't.

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  7. Actually, God's law is 'thou shalt not murder.' God often ordered His people to kill. I am not saying we can sin all we want- I am saying abortion is not a sin. I'm not twisting Christianity at all.

    Saying that I am a Christian means I am a believer in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as the one true God, and Jesus of Nazarath as the Messiah. As a Christian, I try to follow in Jesus's footsteps the best I can, following His teachings and messages and ideals. The Gospel is the good news of Jesus Christ. I was raised as a Christian, and chose to stay within my religion when I was old enough to understand the meaning of what I chose.

    I can't answer your last question, sorry!

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  8. "Killing a child of adultery deprives the adulterer his issue." well that makes it ok then. I am horrified by anon's answer.

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  9. The definition according to the origin of the word 'murder' is to kill another human unlawfully. Translate it anyway you want, killing with premeditation (which is what abortion is) according to God's law, is murder. Yeah, we came along in our sinful state and made all sorts of things legal that are against God's law. As a matter of fact, God's moral law is pretty much dismissed as a whole. No one is punished in the US legal system for adultery, lying, taking God's name in vain, etc., etc. As a matter of fact in the eyes of your regligion of moral relativism, everything is ok and no one should be made to feel bad about anything they do. Abortion is murder. It is the unlawful (God's law not man's)
    And the bible clearly teaches that AS CHRISTIANS "we ought to obey God rather than men". God causing miscarriage (or in clinical terms 'abortion') is just a little different than a woman premeditating, and seeking out an abortion due to her selfish reasoning. Unless, of course, you are placing mankind on equal footing with God.

    So when you say God ordered people to kill, are you saying that justifies any killing that sinful mankind wishes to carry out?

    Also, define the 'good news' of Jesus Christ. And what are your thoughts on the Diety of Christ? If you were a Christian, you would be able to define the experience in terms other than it's "[your] religion". Do you thing trying your best to walk in Jesus footsteps may get you into heaven? If not, what will get you there? I suspect that as we go along, the dodging will begin.

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  10. What makes one person capable of judging another? What makes one "Christian" better than another? What I hate here is that rather than looking at the evidence provided, some of you are just attacking and arguing. What does that accomplish? I'm sure that there is some area where we don't follow what the Bible suggests, and therefore we may "sin," but doesn't that change based on the interpretation? I mean, there is a section where it says women must cover their head during worship, so does that mean women who don't veil themselves in church sin? I know, I know, you're going to say, "That's different because it doesn't involve death," but I do believe sin is sin in God's eyes, and there aren't "degrees" of sin.

    Personally, I found this to be a very informational article.

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  11. Anon @ 10:44-

    Abortion is not murder by biblical standards. If it was, why would God order priests to give adulterous women a substance which could cause an abortion if they were pregnant? Do you think God wants His priests to be murderers?

    America is a secular nation, not a Christian nation. If you want to live in a religious state, may I suggest you try Iran.

    With that said, I don't think Christians need America to create government laws for us to follow the teachings of Christ. Do you need the government of America to tell you not to cheat on your spouse? I don't. Judgment is for God, not for the American government.


    You said:
    "God causing miscarriage (or in clinical terms 'abortion') is just a little different than a woman premeditating, and seeking out an abortion due to her selfish reasoning."

    Yes, they are a bit different. Why do you feel the need to clarify this statement?


    You said:
    "So when you say God ordered people to kill, are you saying that justifies any killing that sinful mankind wishes to carry out? "

    Absolutely not.



    The good news of Jesus is the story of His life, and the fact that He is the Messiah who was killed and rose again in order to save us from our sins.

    As for dodging- sure, I'll start dodging. I am not here to give you the story of my life and lay out for you every belief I have to be judged. What is your purpose in asking these questions? To find a fault of mind? To prove, somehow, that I'm not as good of a Christian as you are?

    The story of my religion and my beliefs are the story of my life. I cannot simply explain them to you in a few sentences in a comment on a blog. Nor do I want to.

    Lastly, when I said "my religion" I was referring to the denomination of Christianity to which I prescribe.

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  12. Anon @ 11:16-

    Thank you for your comments. The Bible says we are all sinners (Romans 3:23). It is difficult for us to be humble, but your comment reminds me I must try harder.

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  13. Who said, or where in the bible it says we aren't to make moral judgements? The Bible says "judge not, that ye be not judged". It's talking about thinking we can judge (pronounce guilt or innocence) someone else's sin. That is only for God. We can, and are required to judge based upon biblical and spiritual guidance what is sin, and what is not. What God declares to be sin is not subject to our interpretation.

    Using the author's reasoning, no one should be upset over the holocaust. It was perfectly legal in Germany under Hitler to exterminate Jews. No one should be upset over slavery. It was perfectly legal in the US to own people as property and do with them what you wanted, even kill them. It was not murder to kill a Jew, and it was not murder to kill a slave. Ok, class - then what was the problem?? Killing Jews, and killing slaves violated the sovereign God's moral law!!!!! Are we getting it yet?

    When God ordered killing, or caused miscarriages their was certainly a divine plan or purpose involved -

    "What shall we say then? Is God unrighteous? Let it not be![i.e. NO WAY!!!] For He said to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." So then it is not of the one willing, nor of the one running, but of God, the One showing mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "Even for this same purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will, He hardens. You will then say to me, Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will? But, O man, who are you who replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him who formed it, Why have you made me this way? Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel to honor and another to dishonor? What if God, willing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction; and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy which He had before prepared to glory;..." (Inspired word of God from the apostle Paul to the church in Rome)

    Did you catch that? Who are you O man, to REPLY AGAINST GOD?

    If we have received the grace of God unto salvation, we are not to continue in our sin as Paul later points out - "What then, should we continue to sin that grace may abound? GOD FORBID!" Which is why, Pro - Choice Christian should either drop the 'pro-choice' or the 'christian' because you can not be both.

    The author correctly asserts that abortion is in God's plan. Duh. This is obvious, because the hardened heart of man commits abortion, and in this age with man made legal protection - and because God is sovereign, all things are part of His plan. Perhaps part of His plan for some women is how it profoundly affects them, and He softens their heart to repent and receive His salvation through His undeserved mercy. The ones who continue to promote the killing He hardens their heart and will demonstrate their destruction to His glory, because He will judge rightly their sins. There are many 'second causes' that affect the hearts and lives of mankind. We are all vessels fashioned for His use, some for honor, some for destruction, but all to make His glory known.

    People will keep getting abortions, people will keep sinning and breaking God's law and thinking they can be excused without the blood of Jesus Christ. Read the gospel of John, people. Cry out for God's forgiveness, and for His mercy, "and He will abundantly pardon"

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  14. And on what do you base the statement, "abortion is not murder by biblical standards"? All the priest was ordered to do was put dirt off the temple floor and give it to the woman to drink. That would not induce abortion. What followed was done by God, not the priest.

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  15. excuse me, dirt off the temple floor into the water. That would hardly cause an abortion....it even clearly talks about what happens after she drinks the water being an act of God, because if she was not adulterous, no punishment given.....and she could be pregnant by her own husband, and the drink would not have caused her to miscarry in that case. so punishment for adultery is clearly in mind, not God sanctioned abortion. Read it again, huh?

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  16. PS you didn't answer my question about Jesus -- Do you believe He is God? And what does living in Iraq have to do with anything I was talking about???? YOU are the one who labels yourself a Christian..why do you not want to talk about it?

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  17. And you are wrongly accusing me of wanting to judge you. And the gospel is pretty short and sweet. And I know we are all sinners....
    The bible teaches us -

    "Always be prepared to give an answer for the hope that is within you"

    and to "Go into all the world and preach the gospel"

    Why don't you want to do that?

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  18. Anonymous at 2:55:

    There is nothing in my post about things which are legal by the American government. Where in the world you got the idea that no one should be upset over the holocaust, I haven't the clue. This post doesn't have anything to do with the American legal government.

    Please stop making claims about abortion and sin unless you've got verses to back it up. There's nothing in the bible which says abortion is a sin. You're writing with the assumption that abortion is a sin, but this hasn't been shown. So please, take a step back.



    Anonymous at 2:59/3:07

    You said: "All the priest was ordered to do was put dirt off the temple floor and give it to the woman to drink. That would not induce abortion."

    Actually, that's exactly what it did- if the woman had cheated and was pregnant. Was it a divine potion? Yes. Was it a different type of abortion than is done today? Of course! But it was an abortion.

    You said:
    "so punishment for adultery is clearly in mind, not God sanctioned abortion"

    Abortion IS the punishment for a woman who had become pregnant by cheating.



    Anonymous at 3:16-

    Sorry, I didn't see you ask if Jesus was God. I believe in the Holy Trinity- Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

    Iraq is a religious state, unlike America. That was my point.

    This blog is about being prochoice, and Christianity; not necessarily my personal brand of Christianity unless I choose to talk about it. We can speak about the Bible without speaking about what I personally hold true.



    Anonymous at 3:19-

    this is getting awfully confusing. I wish you would use a name, or at least say who you were speaking to. I don't think I accused you or anyone of judging me.

    If you are the same anonymous as before, I ask again: what is your purpose in asking me these personal questions?

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  19. Thou shalt not kill (murder). That's a verse in the bible. Sufficient to explain God's prohibition of abortion. These are your words in the comment section of an earlier post -

    "Legally, abortion is not murder because it doesn't fit the definition of murder:

    "murder
    n. the killing of a human being by a sane person, with intent, malice aforethought (prior intention to kill the particular victim or anyone who gets in the way) and with no legal excuse or authority.
    ...
    Death of an unborn child who is "quick" (fetus is moving) can be murder, provided there was premeditation, malice and no legal authority. Thus, abortion is not murder under the law."
    http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1303"

    So you are on record as having said abortion is not murder based on the current law of this land.

    The comparison between legalized killing through abortion, and legalized killing of the Jews in Nazi Germany, and legalized killing of slaves in America is valid. The point is, without God's law there is nothing that points to sin. You provided the definition of murder and postulated that since abortion is legal, it does not fit the criteria for murder. I simply point out that if one follows that particular reasoning, then the killing of slaves by their masters was ok during the slave era in the US, and the killing of Jews in Nazi Germany was also acceptable because there was no law against either practice. Since you are not getting the point I will make it again. What makes all of the aforementioned (Jews in Nazi Germany, Slaves in pre-civil war era, Abortion) killing 'murder' is not the law of man, but the moral law of God. Murder is defined as intentional, premeditated killing of another human being. Mankind may find it possible to change the law, and change the definition to suit the law, but God's law does not change.

    To be continued,

    Signed,
    :) (to avoid confusion)

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  20. Re: Numbers 5:

    If you read the passage in numbers 5, it clearly indicates that the miscarriage was caused by God, not by the dirt in the water.

    "...then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing. And the priest shall say to the woman, Jehovah make you a curse and an oath among your people, when Jehovah makes your thigh to fall away and your belly to swell. " (Jehovah is the one who brought the curse, not the priest)

    "...And when he has made her drink the water, then it shall be, if she is defiled and has committed a trespass against her husband, the water that causes the curse shall enter into her and BECOME BITTER." (it did not become bitter unless she was 'defiled')

    "And if the woman is not defiled, but is clean, then she shall be clean, and shall conceive seed." (the water did not harm her)

    And what if she was with child by her husband? Thhe fetus that was not the result of adultery would be killed. That would make Jehovah unjust, and we know He is not. Furthermore, the woman did not premeditate or intentionally seek out an abortion procedure. In the most clinical of terms, a spontaneous abortion took place, and only if the woman was guilty of adultery. But the priest did not "perform" an abortion. This is a talking point put forth by a pro-choice biblical commentator, and generally disputed by biblical scholars. If you would like me to name a few of them let me know.

    Science supports the theory that a fertilized egg is in fact human. So elective abortion kills a human. If it's alive and you take it's life, that is killing. Pre Roe v. Wade, women killed their fetuses with intent, forethought, and malice. After Roe v. Wade we had to add "With no legal excuse or authority" to the definition of murder in an attempt to alleviate the ensuing guilt caused by the ultimate selfish act of feticide.

    And finally, what is the purpose of defining yourself as a Christian? And if you are so defined, why does it bother you to answer questions about it? I will leave you in peace to drivel on about how everyone should be 'pro-choice', but you should leave Christianity and the bible out of it - especially if you don't like explaining what you believe Chritianity to be. You can't construct Christianity to make your own 'personal brand'. There is only ONE gospel, ONE way to the Father, and that is Jesus Christ. Salvation is from CHRIST ALONE, BY GRACE ALONE, THROUGH FAITH ALONE!!!!!!

    Signed,
    :) (to avoid confusion)

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  21. Anonymous at 2:09 (your name is :) ? )

    You cannot interchange kill and murder. Thou shalt not murder is the law- killing which is not murder is not part of that law.

    There are different sets of laws. The law of America says that abortion is not murder, as per the definition you so kindly quoted. The law of God is found in the Bible- and nothing in the Bible says abortion is murder.

    But again, this post isn't about the legality of abortion in American law. So there's no reason to talk about the holocaust (info, is that youuuuu?).

    Lastly, legal does not always mean acceptable. Smoking cigarettes is legal, but I don't think it's acceptable.


    And comment part 2:

    Numbers 5:22 says:

    "May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells and your thigh wastes away." (NIV)

    "And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot" (KJV)

    The water brings a curse of God with it. This is obviously a "magical" abortion. Like I said before- caused by God, sure. But it's still an abortion (if she is pregnant by cheating).

    "And what if she was with child by her husband? Thhe fetus that was not the result of adultery would be killed"

    I did not live then, I cannot say for sure. Either the pregnancy was lost, because the woman is being punished for cheating regardless of who impregnated her. Or she would be made infertile after the pregnancy had ended, so that would be her last child.


    If you call this a spontaneous abortion, even though it was caused by a potion (bitter water), then what is an abortion caused by RU486? Is that also a miscarriage? The pill does cause the body to miscarry. But most people consider it an "abortion."

    I think it's a bit foolish to say that it isn't an abortion because the woman didn't seek it out herself, or it was performed differently than abortions are performed today.


    "Pre Roe v. Wade, women killed their fetuses with intent, forethought, and malice."

    Proof, please? Show me some Pre Roe women hating on their fetuses, trying to make them suffer.

    "And finally, what is the purpose of defining yourself as a Christian?"

    Because I am a Christian, and I see a need for prochoice Christians to speak up?


    "And if you are so defined, why does it bother you to answer questions about it?"

    As I've already said, this blog isn't about debating my personal beliefs, but talking about abortion and Christianity.

    Thanks for the caps lock! It's always fun to have people yell at me things I already know.

    Have a good day, :)

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  22. It's not my intention to interchange 'kill' with 'murder'. Let's just use murder. I have no difficulty with the use of that word.

    I was quoting your definition of murder. You used it to rebut a comment on another post.

    Are you being intentionally obtuse? Following your own line of reasoning that abortion is not murder because our laws don't define it as such is comparable to making that argument in the case of the holocaust. It was lawful under Hitler's regime to kill people who were Jews. So why would we hold those who did the killing accountable for their actions? Same case can be made for slaves. It was lawful for the southern slave owners to kill their slaves, so you can't call them murderers if they were acting lawfully. This is by your reasoning, not mine.

    One more time, just in case some understnding may be imparted to you. In Numbers 5 it is not the priest, nor the water, nor the dirt that causes the death of the fetus. It is God. This practice was carried out in the absence of witnesses to emphasize that the judgement was from an omniscient God. If the woman wa innocent of adultery the water wouldn't hurt her fetus, so clearly whatever was in the water was not dangerous to a fetus unlike.....

    .....RU486 which is an abortifacient chemically constructed as a progesterone antagonist for the specific purpose of inducing abortion, not to prove or disprove adultery.

    Moving on ..... You show me a woman wh did not premeditate and give forethought to killing her fetus. And malice? Was she showing her fetus beneficence or good will? Deep seated meaness? Yes. It's called sin.

    And Satan already knows that Jesus is Lord.

    Come to think of it, I didn't catch your name either.

    Signed,
    :). ( to avoid confusion)

    ps. The caps lock is for emphasis. Well, maybe raising my voice a little cause you don't seem to 'hear' so good.

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  23. You said:

    "Following your own line of reasoning that abortion is not murder because our laws "

    Again, there are multiple different systems of law. By US American standard, the US law says abortion is not murder. By Christian standard, the Bible does not say that abortion is murder. Killing Jews was legal during the holocaust, but we all know the standard at that time was made up in order to break the law without actually breaking the law.

    Why are you repeating the same things over and over after I've already responded to them?

    As for Numbers 5 - You can believe what you want to. However, the words are right there. They clearly state what happens. If you think that's something *other* that a fetus being intentionally killed, I don't know where you got that idea from.

    If you're going to make claims about the women Pre Roe, you should back it up. Throwing the question back at me just makes me think you can't prove it.

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  24. Pre Roe v. Wade, post Roe v. Wade - are women killing their fetuses because they love them? Are they accidentally walking into abortion clinics, not realizing what they are doing? Are they demonstrating good will and benevolence toward their fetuses? Remembering of course, that the fetus is a human.

    And, if you are a Christian, you realize the whole bible is about life. It says, God favors life. He created man to enjoy fellowship with him forever, without death. If man had not sinned we wouldn't even be talking about abortion, because there would be no death. Sin entered the world because of man, and because of that sin so entered DEATH. God in His mercy, and because He loved His creation, made a way for us to enjoy that fellowship with Him forever, even though the wages of sin is death. The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. He designed the way we procreate. He knew each life before He created the world. Sin brought death. Are you looking for a place in the bible that says 'don't have an abortion'??? Of course you won't find it. Nor will you find a place where it says 'thou shalt not kill, but abortion is ok'. You will find countless passages that say life, long life, children, grandchildren, eternal life, the beauty of nature, etc., etc., is what God designed for His pleasure, and to bless mankind. Taking life away was considered a curse. A curse. Death was and is a curse. This should be enough for the Christian, who has been ordained to walk in the 'light', who is told to "be holy as I am holy", "who is ordained to walk in good works" to not promote the notion that it is ok to kill another human being - for any reason. Sin = death. Grace of God = life. It's that simple. If you are a Christian.


    Signed,
    :) (to avoid confusion)

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  25. you said: "are women killing their fetuses because they love them?"

    My answer: Yes.

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  26. My response: that's sick. and a stupid answer. keep up the good work.


    Do you have children?

    Signed,
    :) (to avoid confusion)

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  27. Love is patient,
    Love is kind;
    Love is not envious, is not vain, is not proud;
    does not behave indecently, seeks good for others - not for itself, is not easily provoked, thinks no evil. Love does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices in the truth,
    Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, ENDURES all things. Love never fails.

    Tell me. Is this the kind of love that causes a mother to kill her fetus?

    Is injecting chemicals into a fetus' heart to stop its beating before instruments are introduced to dismember it kindness? Seeking the good of that fetus? Killing it is a selfless act?

    Perhaps you, as a Christian, have a better definition of love?

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  28. "Tell me. Is this the kind of love that causes a mother to kill her fetus? "

    Yes.

    "Is injecting chemicals into a fetus' heart to stop its beating before instruments are introduced to dismember it kindness? "

    Yes.

    "Seeking the good of that fetus? Killing it is a selfless act?"

    Yes. Yes.

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  29. emily_thomas_wwhMay 3, 2010 at 4:24 PM

    i love this post and believe that it is true...one very strong woman at our clinic once told me during our counseling session that her faith in god has been renewed due that god has provided her the choice a being able to terminate a pregnancy. and when the time comes in her future that she wants to get pregnant and carry through with the pregnancy that she believes god will also bless her with a healthy child.
    this statement was so strong, so powerful all i could do was hug her and let her know how supported she is.

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  30. God doesn't help you make your life what you want it to be. He is in charge. Either you do it His way or you are wrong. God does not exist to make our dreams come true. We exist to glorify Him even if it requires our own death.


    Also, the cuckolded husband of the adulteress is vindicated by God himself. For all we know the adulteress wanted the baby of her lover and was fine with deceiving and cuckolding her husband.

    As for God killing the unborn, that is pretty much a non issue since He already has all authority to give and take life.

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  31. \\Also, the cuckolded husband of the adulteress is vindicated by God himself. For all we know the adulteress wanted the baby of her lover and was fine with deceiving and cuckolding her husband. \\

    Are you saying that God rewarded the husband, by making his wife miserable, by killing her fetus?

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  32. Why, Prochoice Christian, do you base your biblical arguments on an interpretation of Numbers 5, and Exodus, by an atheist, Joyce Arthur? She mocks Christianity, and the word of God. An adequate analogy escapes me here. It's like leaving your kids with a pedophile 'cause he says he will take good care of them. again - Why?!!

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  33. Just coming into this I wanted to clear up the issues here.

    I think we can all agree that murder is wrong, both from the Bible and societies laws.
    Murder has been defined as the unlawful killing of a human being.

    Therefore the real issue here is not what God does as he is not only soverign but beyond our understanding.

    The issue is simply, is the foetus human?

    If it is human then abortion qualifies as murder as we are killing a human being without a justified reason, and we have determined murder is wrong therfore we should fight for the right of the unborn.

    If it is not human then abortion bears no more moral, social, or spiritual consequences than having a wart removed as it is not murder.

    I think it would be prudent to debate the humanity of the unborn, from a Biblical, scientific, or philosophical perspective, and derive our conclusions on the morality of abortion from there.

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  34. lol whatever have you done....33 comments and counting...either this is brilliance or an overreaction. I wonder which one it is.

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  35. "I think it would be prudent to debate the humanity of the unborn, from a Biblical, scientific, or philosophical perspective, and derive our conclusions on the morality of abortion from there."

    ============================

    Debating the humanity of the unborn has been done ad nauseum. Point is that if you are a Christian, debate must have as it's basis an immutable truth - the authority of God's word. Still curious about a Christian who will embrace an atheist's interpretation of scripture. Still curious about an atheist who will quote scripture to argue her bias. Conclusion - neither one of them has the faintest idea of what the bible says or means.

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  36. Anonymous @ 2:32 - I do not base my arguments on interpretations by an atheist. I'm not sure where you got that idea.

    Mirabella- the humanity (or personhood) of the fetus is really irrelevant. Even if we said the fetus was a person, it still wouldn't be murder for a woman to have an abortion. As well, there's more to the definition of murder than what you provided.

    Anonymous @ 10:44am- Although I agree the personhood of the fetus has been argued forever, there are still many different Biblical based opinions on when life starts.

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  37. \\Also, the cuckolded husband of the adulteress is vindicated by God himself. For all we know the adulteress wanted the baby of her lover and was fine with deceiving and cuckolding her husband. \\

    "Are you saying that God rewarded the husband, by making his wife miserable, by killing her fetus?"

    Not exactly. Rather, no man wants to be stuck raising a kid that his wife conceived while cheating on him. Having to raise the child would be an insult and unfair to him. So the husband gets justice. The point is God is taking the side of the innocent injured party. In this case the husband of the adulterous woman. The fact that the baby dies is the fault of the adulterous woman because she cheated her husband.

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  38. google search Joyce Arthur. She is an atheist. If you don't base your arguments on one of her internet posts about biblical support for abortion, then you have concluded the same thing nearly verbatim. What an amazing coincidence! Perhaps you have just heard every other 'pro-choice christian' use the same argument, and you just didn't realize where it came from.

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  39. at any rate, I would appeal to you to seek out ligitimate Christian scholars who soundly interpret these passages, comparing scripture with scripture, and come to a vastly different conclusion. Unless for some reason, as a Christian, you feel it necessary to distance yourself from the authority of scripture and the correct application of it as taught by scholarly Christian apologists I'd be interested to hear that reason, if it exists.

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  40. sorry *legitimate :)

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  41. Anonymous @ 3:25 - I googled Joyce Arthur as you asked. It seems I have a couple of her articles bookmarked, so I have read some of her work. However, *my* views are not based upon her views. It does not surprise me that two people could reach similar conclusions about the Bible- how else do you think religious groups stay together?

    I have looked into multiple sources on scripture, none of which create my opinions but do help to shape them. They range from random bloggers to articles by the pope to writings of early Christian scholars- and everything inbetween!

    Just so you know, my views are not "way out there," so to speak. There are many Christian groups and churches which agree with the general ideas I speak of. There are Jewish groups as well.

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  42. What does create your opinion? And I guess whether or not your views are considered 'way out there' depends a great deal on who you ask, and on whose authority you base your views.

    You should read this.

    http://www.equip.org/PDF/DA365.pdf

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  43. I create my opinion.

    Interesting article, though they start off with some lies almost immediately.

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  44. And those lies are....? And proof to refute the lies.....?

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  45. Basic things, obvious antichoice language. I really don't feel the need to get into it.

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  46. Do you believe in the authority of scripture? Do you believe it is the inspired word of God?
    Do you believe in scriptural inerrancy?

    I believe you have been exposed for what you aren't.

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  47. Non-christian antilifer OWNED!!

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  48. I think the problem here is nobody seems to understand the idea of a mercy kill. There's a big difference between a teen mom hating on her newborn and shaking him, stabbing him (or her) and throwing him in the garbage when she's done brutally beating him and a teen who's already on foster care because her parents couldn't take care of her, choosing to have the procedure thats the most painless for her month old fetus in order to keep it from the same sort of life she's known or something worse.

    The keyword I believe with murder is "malice" and with malice comes intent. If the intent of the killing is to cause torture, pain and to take away from that person and/or their loved ones, then yes, it's murder. If a soldier kills a fallen comrade who's mortally wounded and would only suffer, but not survive, I do not believe it is murder, it's mercy.

    The intent of a woman who aborts is most likely never to invoke pain. I can't speak for all women but I think it's fair to say that almost all women abort out of a desire to eliminate pain for the fetus, whether it be the pain of growing up at a severe financial disadvantage, the pain of living with a serious disability or deformity that might result in an early death anyway, or simply the pain of growing up with a mother who does not want a child or becoming a forgotten child in foster care, the pain of growing up feeling unloved and unwanted. This is not a malicious act. In the case of the woman who would otherwise love to be a mother but is financially burdened, it can be one of the most unmalicious acts she could ever make. She is putting aside her own desire for motherhood to give the fetus (baby, human, whatever you'd like to call it) inside her the chance for an honorable, painless death without suffering. She is putting aside her needs and desires to make things less painful for someone else. These are acts of love. Not malice.

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  49. And if a mother has a change of circumstance and becomes financially burdened when her baby is two months old, she needs to crush up a half a dozen xanax and put it in the baby formula. Honorable and painless death out of her desire to make things less painful for her baby. Or when her baby is five, and is diagnosed with leukemia, inject a lethal dose of morphine in that IV, instead of more chemo. Honorable, painless death for her child out of a desire to make life less painful. Based on your reasoning, killing our children (as long as it is painless and honorable [?] ) should be ok whenever we feel the need to spare them further pain. Of course at some point they are able to survive totally independent of us, so we need to determine when that is. But in terms of intrauterine - extrauterine, these are merely stages of developement. And we all know that giving them up for adoption would be too painful, so they must die. Now don't give me the 'clump of cells' argument - we all know that scientifically speaking, all of the genetic material needed for a human being is present at the moment of fertilization - even to determining whether it is male or female, so it is a human being, and we are killing that which is human, so what's the difference? But we all know that killing something at it's most vulnerable stage is always easier, more honorable, right? More representative of a selfless act.

    And while we're at it - why do we consider suicide an aberration? Why do we point to the individual who commits suicide and say they were mentally ill? Maybe they just wanted to die an honorable and painless death to prevent more suffering. Therefore suicide is a selfless act of love, yes? A person making a choice, making a decision about their own life/body, and it should be supported by pro choice groups.

    Pro Choice Christian - you should change your user name to Pro Choice God. You seem to think that we have the right to make the decisions of God. Scary for you.

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  50. @ anonymous above: When we say that someone who committed suicide was mentally ill, it's because they WERE mentally ill. Suicide is usually the result of someone's mental illness. Sometimes people do kill themselves because they want to end their suffering, and then we don't qualify them as mentally ill, we simply say that they wanted to die with dignity. It's fairly obvious when someone committed suicide to end their suffering, at least to their immediate family, who will be notified of the terminal condition they suffered from.

    Many pro-choicers do support assisted suicide, these pro-choicers probably do belong to pro assisted suicide groups. The pro-choice groups themselves aren't involved with that issue because the pro-choice movement is about sexual and reproductive rights specifically.

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