Sunday, November 15, 2009

Silent Scream is a lie.


I assume you heard someone talking about "the silent scream"? Here is the truth behind it. This was taken off of the NIH (National Institue of Health) website, so it is impartial and neither pro or anti abortion. It is simply medical fact.

Claim:
The 12-week fetus experiences pain.
Facts:
At this stage of the pregnancy, the brain and nervous system are still in a very early stage of development. The beginnings of the brain stem, which includes a rudimentary thalamus and spinal cord, is being formed. Most brain cells are not developed. Without a cerebral cortex (gray matter covering the brain), pain impulses cannot be received or perceived. Additionally, experts find that newborns at 26-27 weeks' gestation (24-25 weeks' fetal age) who survive have significantly less response to pain than do full term newborns.
The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists
Statement on Pain of the Fetus
We know of no legitimate scientific information that supports the statement that a fetus experiences pain early in pregnancy.
We do know that the cerebellum attains its final configuration in the seventh month and that mylenization (or covering) of the spinal cord and the brain begins between the 20th and 40th weeks of pregnancy. These, as well as other neurological developments, would have to be in place for the fetus to receive pain.
To feel pain, a fetus needs neurotransmitted hormones. In animals, these complex chemicals develop in the last third of gestation. We know of no evidence that humans are different.

Claim:
The 12-week fetus makes purposeful movements (e.g., agitated movement in an attempt to avoid suction cannula).
Facts:
At this stage of pregnancy, all fetal movement is reflexive in nature rather than purposeful, since the latter requires cognition, which is the ability to perceive and know. For cognition to occur, the cortex (gray matter covering the brain) must be present, as well as myelinization (covering sheath) of the spinal cord and attached nerves, which is not the case.
An example of the reflex withdrawal without pain occurs in an anencephalic (absent brain) newborn. Another known example of the reflex movement at this stage of human pregnancy is thumb sucking in utero.
What is termed "frantic activity" by the fetus is a reflex response of the fetus resulting from movement of the uterus and its contents induced by operator manipulation of the suction curette or the ultrasound transducer on the abdomen. This same type of response would likely occur with any external stimulus. A one-cell organism such as an amoeba will reflexively move or display a withdrawal reaction when touched.
In addition, experts in ultrasonography and film technology have concluded that the videotape of the abortion was deliberately slowed down and subsequently speeded up to create an impression of hyperactivity.

Claim:
Ultrasonogram depicts the open mouth of the fetus.
Facts:
The mouth of the fetus cannot be identified in the ultrasound image with certainty. The statement that the screen identifies the open mouth of the fetus is a subjective and misleading interpretation by Dr. Nathanson. His conclusion is not supportable.

Claim:
The fetus emits "The Silent Scream."
Facts:
A scream cannot occur without air in the lungs. Although primitive respiratory movements do occur in the later stages of gestation, crying or screaming cannot occur even then. In fact, a child born prematurely at 26-27 weeks' gestation (24-25 weeks' fetal age) cannot scream but occasionally emits weak cries.

Claim:
A fetus is indistinguishable from any of the rest of us.
Facts:
A fetus of 12 weeks cannot in any way be compared to a fully formed functioning person. At this stage only rudiments of the organ systems are present. The fetus is unable to sustain life outside the woman's womb, it is incapable of conscious thought; it is incapable of essential breathing. It is instead an in utero fetus with the potential of becoming a child.

Claim:
Fetal head at 12 weeks requires the use of "crushing instruments" for extraction.
Facts:
At 12 weeks' gestation (10 weeks' fetal age) and even 1-2 weeks beyond, instrumentation other than a suction cannula is not required when abortion is properly performed. Cannulas for aspiration abortion come in varying sizes, and the larger sizes are adequate for withdrawing the contents of the uterus.


So to sum it up, Prior to atleast 24 weeks, it is medicaly impossible for a fetus to "feel" anything. That is not an opinion, it is medical fact. The parts of the nervous system and brain that we must have in order to feel something are not there. They have not developed yet.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Abortion-1320/know-truth.htm

178 comments:

  1. This is great. Could you please cite the orignal source from the NIH website?

    (They would just call it biased, but Planned Parenthood used to have a page with a lot of the same things on it. I can't find it anywhere. It was called "The Facts Speak Louder Than The Silent Scream".)

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  2. I've yet to find the link, unfortunately. If anyone finds it before me, they're welcome to share!

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    Replies
    1. I like how planned parenthood funded this study (i.e. they paid someone) to help debunk something that would eat into their profit margin.

      When my son was born he was circumcised and did not need pain meds afterward, guess I could have just killed him because he did not feel (enough) pain.

      Any time a thing experiences pain they react in an involuntary manner to retreat from the source of pain.

      Have you ever worked with electrical currents or circuits? Me either. I have felt an electric shock without actually touching an object. This means that a full connection doesn't need to be made in order to form an electrical current or stimulate pain. Our nervous system works on the same principles. If the energy build up is weak a full connection needs to be made. If the energy build up is strong a full connection does not have to be present.

      Babies outside of the womb react in involuntary manners all of the time. Pick a puppy up by the scruff of it's neck and they are unfazed. Pick a full grown dog up by the scruff of their neck and listen to them yelp. We should abort puppies too! Bet we could make millions! No wait we care about baby animals, right?

      The youngest live birth recorded is 21 (almost 22) weeks gestation and yet we could have killed her legally.

      It isn't medically impossible it's medically unknown because we can't ask a baby if they are in pain.

      Hey I would wholeheartedly trust a person who was paid to do a study by people who stood to lose a lot of money to debunk the very thing that put their business at risk. Completely I would trust this source to give me nothing but the truth. Oh wait... I have that backwards. I would actually trust the people who had absolutely nothing to gain from making this video to most likely deliver the facts.

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  3. http://my.opera.com/JoanRC/blog/2010/01/02/planned-parenthoods-critique-of-silent-scream-propaganda-film

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  4. bull shit abortion is not right unless medically necessary!!!

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  5. Replies
    1. what kind of christian back ground are you?

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    2. Obviously the apostate kind.

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  6. Your allexperts expert is a 23 year old mother who works at 'safe haven', and is apparently pro choice. Don't think she's old enough to be a doctor, maybe just out of colllege with her undergrad, eh? Your planned parenthood link reveals that planned parenthood was responsible for convening the panel on fetal pain -- does it occur to you that they might select a panel favorable to their particular bias? Check this link. It disproves the theory you have glommed onto about fetal pain.

    http://www.kfl.org/siteresources/data/files/FetalPain-DrRanalli-brainexpert.pdf.pdf

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  7. Anonymous, it seems you went to the website to search out information. Having done that, I'm surprised you missed this line:

    "This was taken off of the NIH (National Institue of Health) website, so it is impartial and neither pro or anti abortion. It is simply medical fact."

    Of course, after speaking to me about the merits of a source, you go on to direct me towards a website called "Kansans for Life." Perhaps it is you who needs to consider bias?

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    Replies
    1. did you see the references under each of the statements? they are also medical facts and findings

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    2. does it really make the point for abortion if an unborn child feels pain or makes a sound as a result of pain? sounds like the ProChoice Christian has a "conscience" issue and needs to tell themself that they're right. maybe their conscience is better served by what the scriptures say about abortion on demand and take it up with God.

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  8. http://my.opera.com/JoanRC/blog/2010/01/02/planned-parenthoods-critique-of-silent-scream-propaganda-film

    Pro choicer (I will leave the christian part off):

    The above link states that the fetal pain research was done by a group of physicians commissioned/underwritten/subsidized by planned parenthood.

    The link I sent you to was a research paper done by a neurologist/neuroscientist, not commissioned by any group, merely cited by "kansans for life". Therefore, don't lecture me about bias. Did you even read the research? Can you disprove it? You only hear what you want to hear, yes?

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  9. And I would be glad to debate the merits of the research.

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  10. PS..... Planned Parenthood commissioned/underwrote/subsidized the study to debunk "silent scream". Did Dr. Ranalli apparently had no other motive than to disprove bad science.

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  11. Anon @ 9:49:

    Unfortunately, the paper you cited made a lot of claims with links back to research which I do not have access to nor the time to look up right now. I was interested to see that many of the sources were from the 1980s and 1990s, though.

    I am sure you know that this one single study is not the only science proving the above statements. Why is it, you think, that your scientist had to publish his own paper, instead of in a medical journal (such as this post on fetal pain? http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/294/8/947)? Why is it that the above study was able to get quotes from the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists if it's such bad science?

    Antichoicers obviously have a lot of motive to publish lies. One such being an attempt to end abortion.

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    Replies
    1. Well duh! Why do you think he had to publish his own paper? The studies you found could get published in medical journals and get quotes from the American College of obstetricians and gynaecologists. So what. Are you really that naive? Did it ever occur to you that those sources support the government's pro abortion policy. It's called propaganda.

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  12. Joe posted a comment but it didn't appear:
    "
    FUCK this site you're all sick in the head.If you take a step back and look at abortion in a very basic way, it is just a pathetic excuse to rid yourself the duty of raising a human being. This is the act of a COWARD. I don't need to cite links or research to prove a point. This is just common logic. What leads to abortion? Casual sex? So you're preventing a potential human life so that you can just have sex whenever you want. your baby could grow up to cure a disease, or make you a proud parent, but no. You would MUCH rather get lucky on Friday night instead of raising a child. You can fire back with a lame post like "LOL this guy is such an idiot," but NOBODY that I know who has had an abortion has felt good about it, because it is ultimately a SELFISH decision, so if something you "believe" is right, then why should it leave so much guilt in everyone that it effects? Please pro-choicers, go die in a fire, because you clearly are a waste of human life, maybe trade your life for one of the poor lives you support ending. -Joe "

    Joe, you seem to have some misinformation and incorrect facts about abortion. Abortion is not caused by casual sex. Married women have abortions, as do women in committed relationships. Just as a fetus could turn into a person who cures diseases, it could also turn into a person who follows in Hitler's footsteps.60% of women who abort are mothers- they're not aborting just so they can get their rocks off on friday nights.

    Perhaps the reason you don't know anyone who's had a positive experience with abortion is because you are so cruel to women who have aborted. Any women you know who has aborted and was grateful probably wont mention it to you out of fear of what you will do to her.

    As for your fire comment, thank you for proving that antichoicers are not prolife, but simply pro fetus.

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    Replies
    1. Not to mention some people get abortions because they never even wanted to have sex in the first place... rape is probably the biggest reason for abortion.

      Personally, I am anti-abortion, but I have been raped and am pregnant from it.

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    2. Nope. The biggest reason is because the pregnant person has a young child already and does not feel she is ready for another. Rape/incest accounts for less than 5% of abortions.

      That said, I am so sorry for what you're going through. No one deserves an unwanted pregnancy. Whatever you choose to do, I wish you the best.

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    3. Nope the MAJORITY of abortions are carried out by single women because of casual sex or sex outside of a committed relationship i.e marriage. That's fact and I make no apologies for saying that.

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    4. And actually less than 1% of abortions are as a result of rape.

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    5. Anon, you are incorrect. Less than half of all abortions are had by women who have never been married. 55% are or were married, or living with their partner.

      As for whether their sex is casual or not, you have no way to know that. But again, if we go by the facts, it seems most women who abort aren't just having casual sex.

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    6. "Were married" or " living with your partner" counts as single i.e not married. Pregnancy within the covenant of marriage is MUCH less likely to end in abortion. All sex outside of the covenant of marriage is casual from a Christian perspective. It may well be a relationship based on love but it is convenient love as opposed to covenant love. That's the point I'm making.

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    7. "from a Christian perspective" devalues your argument because such biases have no legal basis. Not all Americans are Christians.

      I might respect your argument if you, or anyone, could prove to me that the fathers of aborted children would be punished the same as the mothers if abortion were made illegal.

      But just as child support is so rarely enforced, I doubt it.

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    8. Not all Americans are Christians, that's fine. The main point I was making is that when quoting statistics "Christian prochoicer" put those living with their partners in the same group as those that are married making it seem like there is a lesser percentage in the "single" group. Whether you're Christian or not single means not married and abortions are much less likely within marriage.

      If abortion were made illegal then obviously any person involved in carrying out the abortion (and that includes the pregnant woman) should be the one's punished.

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  13. Thank you SO much for this! I'm also a pro-choice Christian who often argues with my anti-choice friends. Now I have something to show them!

    I agree that preventing pregnancy is the best thing. But things happen sometimes! And women have rights! We should not be treated like caged animals used for breeding. That is cruel to women!

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    1. Your people calling yourselves Christian make me sick!! Have you read your bible recently? Being a nominal Christian means nothing...zilch.

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    2. Caged animals used for breeding??? Wow talk about dramatic. Get a grip Boadie. Yes women have rights just like EVERY other human being, the most basic of which is the right to life. "Christian" what a joke.

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  14. Thank you for this information! And for handling that idiot anon (particularly Joe)...you can tell you've frustrated someone intellectually when they resort to spewing lies and violence. Women getting abortions to continue having casual sex? HAH! Being pro-life yet telling people who are practicing their freedom of speech to die in a fire? BRILLIANT

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  15. So basically Joe, women ought to drop everything, give up their physical health, their control of their bodies, and have a baby at the drop of a hat whenever.

    Hyperfail.

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    Replies
    1. If they want to have unprotected or unresponsible sex, they better be ready for the responsibilities.

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    2. *Irresponsible. Simple grammar, and you can't even do that right.

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  16. haha I love how you sensor the comments! Anything that proves you are wrong and should not call yourself a Christian since you do not follow Christ at all you just remove...Classy ;) The silent scream was not a hoax....haha nice try though. Oh the misinformation on blogs is hilarious. Give a someone a page to write on and wow look how they suddenly think they are an expert and spread lies!

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    Replies
    1. Give someone an opportunity to comment and wow look how they suddenly look like a complete and total illiterate moron.

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  17. Anonymous- I'm not sure you actually read through the comments. Many here are against my position. I do not review comments before posting them. Sometimes Blogger has problems, but as you can see above I myself will post the comments in that situation.

    I'm not an expert- that's why I quoted experts.

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  18. Keep trying to convince yourselves!

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  19. I had an abortion at 7 weeks. I have three children already and have been married for many years. This was a hard decision for my husband and I. I am a registered nurse who is the primary income for my family. Unfortunately, I suffer from severe back pain and there is days it is hard to walk. Any additional weight, could have permently disabled me. Futhermore, I didn't have insurance and did not qualify for free care. My children would have most likely lost their home if I would have continued the pregnancy.

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  20. I am curious for those of you who are "Pro-Choice Christians". As a Christian you obviously belive that each person has a soul. At what point in gestation do you think that this unborn person gains her soul? If you're not sure, can you feel good about this choice. I support a woman's right to choose if she has sex. If however she chooses to have sex without birth control and creates a life that she should be accountable for that choice and carry the child to term. If you don't want a baby there are thousands of couples who can't conceive and would love to adopt your child. It may be inconvenient for a few months but pales at the sacrifice of a child for the sake of convenience.

    I am not attacking anyone here and have tried to convey my thoughts in a respectful manner. I hope you reply the same way.

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    Replies
    1. "It may be inconvenient for a few months"

      HA!!! Understatement of the century, m'friend.

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    2. I really wish people would stop using "there are thousands of couples who can't conceive and would love to adopt your child" as a part of their argument. There are so many children in foster cares in this day and age that having a child and just giving it up to foster care/adoption, in no way guarantees that they will grow up with a family.

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    3. Unfortunately that's an error with the system that we should work to have changed.

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  21. Being accountable for the choice to have sex doesn't mean you can't abort. Abortion is one way to take responsibility for having sex.

    The idea that you can just give your baby to a couple for adoption is foolish. There are thousands of children waiting in foster care right now, and no one is adopting them. Adoption is also an extremely expensive, complicated process.

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    Replies
    1. So abortion is ok as a method of birth control? Hmmm...sound Christian values there.

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    2. As a Christian, I would rather every child born be wanted and loved. Abortion is not an easy choice for any mother, but sometimes it is the right choice. And I am an American as much as I am a Christian, and I believe we should respect separation of church and state. This means we should allow every woman to act within her own choices and beliefs.

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    3. I disagree. I believe we should respect the law but not when it is obviously morally wrong. God's law is more important and separating Christian values from our laws is not good for society.

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  22. The debate is a simple one.
    "Is the fetus human?"
    If it is wrong to kill humans, and the fetus is human, it it wrong to kill a fetus.

    Level of development doesn't make someone more or less human. A newborn is not as developed as a 10 year old. Is the newborn less human? Can we kill it?

    Being dependent on another human being does not make someone less human. Some Siamese twins are joined in such a way that it would kill them to separate them. Joined at the head, or the neck? They're dependent on each other. If you kill them, do you face a single murder charge or a double murder charge? Being dependent on someone else doesn't make someone less human.

    If you can prove that the fetus is not human then we can kill it. If it is truly another human life, then it is valuable and should be protected.

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    Replies
    1. but its not human... its pretty much a growth, like a tumor. it will turn into a human one day, maybe. anyways, my point is, it's not human, its not sentient.

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    2. Not human eh...?! Looks like someone needs a biology lesson.

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    3. Funny, we just went over that recently in my Anatomy and Physiology class. A fetus that is neither cognitive nor can feel pain, is not considered a human. It is in fact just that, a growth. With the potential to BECOME a human.

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    4. Are the mothers not humans as well? Should they lose there right to choice when they become pregnant? Should they be forced to endure a process to give birth to a child they don't want, or cant have? Even if there life is threatened? Is the "potential for life" more important than the already living?

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    5. *their right (sorry couldn't resist!)

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    6. Should they lose their right to choose to end their baby's life once they become pregnant? Yes. Once you are pregnant life has begun. It's a fact of life (again science, not religion) that if you have intercourse you may become pregnant. All life is of equal value and doctors should always treat two patients and do their best to save both lives.

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  23. And how is abortion "taking responsibility for having sex"? How is killing your offspring responsible?

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    Replies
    1. Responsible is not bringing a child into the world when you can not afford to care for it and protect it. We shouldn't assume all women getting abortions are heartless, sometimes it is the right choice. And don't mention adoption as a viable choice because the system for that is a mess in the USA and too many children wait for a loving home.

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    2. Fine, use birth control (when used properly it is highly unlikely that you will conceive) or wait until you are ready for children. That is being responsible. I don't assume all women getting abortions are heartless, (although some are like those who have multiple abortions and use it as a form of birth control.) Mostly I just think it's sad that women are choosing to abort their babies. That's what happens when you grow up in a society where abortion is so socially acceptable and widely available. People are desensitised to what abortion really is. As for not considering adoption as a viable choice, however bad the system is at least you are giving that person a chance to live.

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  24. I am very grateful for this site. Thank you for providing this factual information! I hope there are many other sites like this that are growing in number as our nation needs sound, factual information instead of religious based emotionally based information. There is FAR too much misinformation about abortion out there. There is much that needs to be revealed (Scientific information) on this subject.

    Thanks again.

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    Replies
    1. You lot make me laugh. You love to bring in religion or emotion to "try" to discredit anyone who speaks out about the truth of abortion. It's basic scientific fact that the unborn are human no matter what stage of development they are at. Come back when you can prove scientifically that they are another species other than human. Idiot.

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    2. The aim is not to claim a fetus is another species that only becomes human when leaving the womb. People need scientific information about when life begins for the fetus and when it begins to feel. The factual information can not be driven by religion in a country that claims to have a separation of church and state. Especially when the "facts" are mixed with emotions parts of the bible.

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    3. It is purely scientific that life begins at conception. That's the zygote stage when the the egg is fertilised by the sperm and the zygote starts to take on growth, life has begun. Nothing to do with religion. What is being taught in your anatomy/physiology class is clearly part of a pro abortion agenda. That's because we have a pro abortion government/system.

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    4. When it begins to feel is irrelevant. Fact is it is always human. Anyway those supporting a pro abortion agenda are obviously going to claim that the fetus feels nothing until much later in pregnancy.

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  25. What type of information needs to be revealed? Can you reveal it to us here?

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  26. Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."- Jeremiah 1:5. If you are Christian then this verse should open your eyes. He said before I formed you in the Womb I knew you so If you can read that as a Christian and still believe abortion is Ok then I'm sorry but I just can't relate. You should look in your heart and realize how wrong it is. I pray for your soul Pro abortion Christian.

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    1. Anon, please take the time to read my whole blog. This comment is not relevant to the post, and I've already responded to out of context Bible quotes like this before. There is nothing wrong with being a prochoice Christian.

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  27. There's nothing wrong with being a pro choice Christian? I'm pretty sure Jesus is against the murder of unborn babies. You people are twisted. If you support abortion you are NOT a Christian and you do not have the Holy Spirit in you. You are living a lie.

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    1. I'm pretty sure Jesus is smacking himself in the face for how you're all acting.

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    2. I agree..Christians supporting abortion, how absurd!!

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  28. Even if a foetus feels no pain, an abortion still ends a human life. God is the giver of life. Read your bible lately?? Thought not.

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  29. How many abortions have you had pro choice "Christian"?

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  30. How dare you call yourself Christian. Repent !!!!

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  31. Had your fun, Anon?

    I am a Christian. I have read my Bible. I've had no abortions. Abortion is not murder. Jesus is not antichoice.

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  32. It may be fun to you, but I am genuinely alarmed that you have the audacity to call yourself a Christian. What church do you go to that teaches these lies? I think you should let people know so they can avoid it! You are being deceived by the enemy. If you were truly in relationship with Jesus Christ you would know this. And let's face it you are only one unplanned pregnancy away from having an abortion. Sickening. Anti choice what a load of rubbish! I love choice, choices are great, but when that "choice" involves ending a human life that is MURDER. Check out Exodus 20:13 it' couldn't be clearer.

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    Replies
    1. As I am proCHOICE and not proABORTION, you have no idea what I would do if I had an unplanned pregnancy; neither do I, because I wont make that decision unless I was in that situation.

      Abortion is not murder. Why do antichoicers lie so much?

      I don't "call" myself a Christian, I AM a Christian; and for you to judge me and whether or not I am based upon something that isn't mentioned directly at all by Jesus is hilarious. Please keep judging me.

      "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first." - John 15:18

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  33. You can a play around with words all you want it doesn't change a thing. If you support abortion as a "choice" then you are pro abortion. It's really not that complicated.

    Anyway if there is nothing wrong with abortion then why should it offend you to be called pro abortion?

    How can you say abortion isn't murder. Isn't murder the intentional killing of another human being??

    And yes I will keep judging you and others like you who claim to be Christian. There is such a thing as righteous judgement. The Lord said "Ye shall know them by their fruits."

    That scripture you quoted is totally out of context btw it is about hatred from the world i.e unbelievers. And who said I hated you anyway? It is you who are judging me by quoting that scripture. In fact I am praying for you because only the conviction of the Holy Spirit and the goodness of God can bring you to repentance.



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    1. I am mistaken in saying "not proabortion" in that I am not "just" proabortion. If I am proabortion, I am also probirth, proadoption, prosafesex, probabies, prodoula, promidwife, prochildfree, and more.

      Abortion is not murder because it clearly doesn't fit the definition of murder.

      I think it's funny how you twist things around; you think I'm judging you, yet you have taken it upon yourself to decide whether I am Christian. You think I'm playing with words when you mislabel abortion and prochoice.

      I'm glad you're praying for me. I love prayers. They strengthen my bond with Jesus every day.

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  34. You don't have to be pro abortion to be pro all those other things you mentioned. They're irrelevant to the topic we are discussing.

    Could you tell me how abortion does not fit the definition of murder? Murder is the intentional killing of another human being. PLEASE explain.

    I haven't mislabelled abortion. Abortion in the context of this discussion is the termination of pregnancy by the intentional killing of the unborn baby. As for the term pro choice, "choice" is very broad, more specifically we are talking about abortion. You are either pro or anti abortion. I'm not twisting things at all I'm just telling it like it is.

    When God came into the world in human form in the person of Jesus Christ, He entered through the womb, right? Therefore God Himself was once a zygote, an embryo, a foetus etc Think of the significance of this! That is huge!!

    Also, while in terms of the divine we know that the incarnation of Jesus was so much more, but If you think about it in human terms for a moment (say in the eyes of people living at the time who had no idea of the spiritual significance of His conception) the conception of Jesus was an unplanned pregnancy. And His mother was an unmarried woman, which was very socially unacceptable at that time and in that culture. How then can you say that God is pro abortion? It just doesn't add up.

    "Behold,children are a heritage from the Lord, The fruit of the womb is a reward."
    Psalm 127:3

    God's word is truth.

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    1. I am pointing out that in being prochoice, I am being pro all these things; not to force them upon people, but to give people free choice to live their lives as they see fit.

      As for how abortion isn't murder, the definition is very clear:

      "murder
      n. the killing of a human being by a sane person, with intent, malice aforethought (prior intention to kill the particular victim or anyone who gets in the way) and with no legal excuse or authority....Death of an unborn child who is "quick" (fetus is moving) can be murder, provided there was premeditation, malice and no legal authority. Thus, abortion is not murder under the law."
      http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1303

      Prochoice is not just about abortion, that's the mistake many antis make.

      Mary's pregnancy may have been unplanned, but it was not unwanted. The angel came down and told her what God's plan was, and she agreed to it. I never said God was pro-abortion; I said Jesus is not antichoice. Do you think an unmarried woman should be forced to abort? I don't, not even in the days when Mary was alive. It isn't about making the "right" people have babies and the "wrong" people have abortions, it's about letting each individual woman CHOOSE what the best course is for her and her family.

      Some women abort specifically so they can continue to care for their children. They are following God's word to value their children, instead of causing suffering because they focus on a zygote- which is never mentioned in the Bible as a reward or punishment.

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    2. Who said anything about punishment? Think you are mixing up Obama's words with the word of God, which by the way DOES tell us that children are a reward.

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  35. Choice in itself is not a bad thing, that's why God gave us all free will. But with this comes the responsibility to make right choices (leading to godly, righteous living.) We can also make wrong choices (sin). Every believer will face God's judgement and will have to give account for the choices we make.

    Giving people free choice to live their lives as they see fit would lead to chaos, not everyone agrees on what is acceptable behaviour. Obviously as you know,this is why countries establish laws, but governments don't always get everything right. No country's legal system is perfect and there is always going to be corruption. Remember abortion is a multi million dollar industry. Just because abortion is legal doesn't mean it is right. It is in fact state sanctioned murder.

    As Christians we know there is a higher law above the laws of the nations that does not change according to the changing demands of society. Through the Word and through abiding in a relationship with Jesus we can discern what is morally right and wrong. Which law do you hold dearer? The law of the land or God's law?

    We are called to be separate from the world system when it comes to issues such as this. "Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God." (Romans 12:2)
    Listen also to the words of Jesus in Matthew 7:13,14 He tells us to enter by the narrow gate.

    Yes Mary agreed to the pregnancy but it wasn't that simple, she was in difficult curcumstances having to explain this to Joseph and facing possible condemnation by not being married. She also had the added pressure of knowing the sacrifices she would have to make and that her son would die a horrific death. She agreed because she humbly submitted herself and her life to the will of God. God chose her because in His perfect wisdom He had this foreknowledge. As believers we are also called to submit to the will of God.

    Of course I don't think an unmarried woman should be forced to abort, that's absurd! i'm totally anti abortion!! Haven't I made that clear. And yes I am aware that women in all walks of life have abortions. The point I was making is that isn't it so awesome that Almighty God, the creator of all things would choose to come to earth under these circumstances. Therefore how could He be pro abortion.

    You just said you never said God was pro abortion, so are you now saying He is anti abortion?!? Ok. But you are also saying Jesus is not anti choice. So Jesus is pro choice i.e pro abortion?!? Please explain because that is a total contradiction. You are aware that Jesus and God are one yes? Otherwise I am totally wasting my time here!

    Also, how is choosing to abort following God's word to value your children?? Can you not see that that makes no sense. Is your child in the womb less valuable before it is born? Was God less valuable while He was a zygote?? Think about what you are saying.

    Instead of focussing on abortion "rights" why not lay that aside and put your energy into the other more honourable and worthwhile things like trying to change the system of adoption or giving greater support to women in crisis pregnancies?

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  36. The bible does NOT say "You shall not murder when there is no legal authority."

    It simply says " You shall not murder." Exodus 20:13

    In Nazi Germany it was legal to kill Jews and others deemed "unworthy of life". That was also state sanctioned murder. Would you be ok with a similar law if was re introduced? As long as it's legal it's not murder right!?

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  37. Quite a bit of text and it's late, so I'll respond to the major points:

    1) Abortion is not murder. Claiming the definition doesn't matter is foolish; Christians follow the law as much as the next guy.

    2) Nothing in the Bible says abortion is murder. So even if you're claiming Biblical law over USA laws, you're still incorrect. Of all the thousands of things happening when Jesus was alive, he mentions caring for the poor, feeding the hungry, loving your neighbor, etc. Not a single thing about abortion being illegal or wrong.

    No, I am not saying God is anti-abortion. I am saying God gave us, and holds for us, the position of choice. Free will, as you mentioned. Sin is a choice, yes, but abortion is not a sin (again, see your Bible: nothing in it says abortion is a sin).

    Your inability to tell the difference between prochoice and proabortion is confusing you, it seems.

    3) I am prochoice, which means I focus on a multitude of things, including abortion rights, fixing the adoption & foster system, and supporting women in their unplanned pregnancies and new births.

    4) Your continued comments about Mary's "tough" state show a false belief about prochoice people. I don't want people in tough situations to "just abort." I want them to have all the resources available so they can make which ever choice they want without pressure. If they want to continue their pregnancy, I want them to have prenatal care and birth support. If they want to abort, I want them to have access to safe abortion and funding support (among other things for both, of course). A tough situation doesn't change my position. I'd tell a woman in Mary's position the same thing I'd tell the wife of an executive who had intentionally gotten pregnant: "It's your choice."

    Hope you've been having a great holiday season.

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    1. So by your logic everything Hitler did in Nazi Germany was ok (since it was all legal).

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    2. Since Hitler murdered human beings, no, it wasn't okay. Did you even read the part about Biblical law?

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    3. Ok hear me out on a few things. The unborn are human beings. To say otherwise is unscientific and makes no sense. Human/human being...no difference. Both terms can mean the same thing. "Human" can be used as a noun or an adjective.On your blog " Please read before you say something stupid" you say yes the unborn are human but in the same way my arm is human or my eye is human etc (the adjective). The problem with this is that the unborn are not just simply body parts floating around in the womb, they are complete human beings just at an early stage of development. You're right in saying that your arm is human (adjective) but you are a human being. In the same way the arm of a fetus is human (adjective) but the fetus is a human being!

      In your definition of murder it says murder is the killing of a HUMAN BEING (with intent etc and with no legal excuse or authority, right?) It goes on to say that death of an unborn child(!) can be murder provided there was premeditation and no legal authority. The unborn therefore are classified as HUMAN BEINGS since by this definition the ONLY thing stopping abortion from being treated as murder is the legal authority, not their humanity..


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    4. You accept this definition of murder (in which the unborn are defined as human beings!)

      So you accept the murder of human brings as long as there is legal authority..therefore why do you not accept what Hitler did? It was all legal..

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    5. Nothing scientifically proves that zygotes are human beings. They're not persons. Aborting a pregnancy is not murder. You can tell antichoicers don't even think it is, because they want women who have abortions to be labeled as "victims" instead of "murderers." When asked about punishment for what antis consider a crime, they say none. Forgiveness. Which is great, but is also not how you treat someone you actually think is a murderer.

      I use that definition of murder because it so clearly points out that abortion isn't murder. Are you too now accepting that abortion isn't murder?

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    6. A simple DNA test of a fetus PROVES that it is a human. Can it be proven scientifically that it is not a human? No. Basic science.

      Even the legal definition (provided by you) says they are human beings! Read the definition again..there is no question about their humanity. It even uses the word "child".

      You said the definition "clearly points out" that abortion isn't murder. Yes under the current law it is not murder. (Same can be said for Hitlers killings under Nazi law.) But It also "clearly points out" that abortion can be murder provided there is premeditation and no legal authority. If they were not human beings it could NEVER be considered murder!

      So here is my point again..
      You said in your answer what Hitler did wasn't ok because he killed human beings. In the definition you provided abortion is the killing of human beings so please tell me how can one be ok and the other not?

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    7. Regarding your comment on women being labelled murderers/victims..
      Some might say they are victims in the sense that these women are constantly lied to about the reality of abortion. They grow up in a godless society where abortion is seen as no big deal and the unborn are reduced to a clump of cells. Heck they're even told the unborn aren't human beings!! So what could possibly be wrong with it..?

      Abortionists on the other hand know exactly what they are doing and lie to women when they are at their most vulnerable for the sake of enriching their own bank accounts. The abortionists should most definitely be tried for murder. The woman bears some guilt but those who know for sure what they are doing bear much more.

      Once abortion is abolished and the reality of how wrong it is sinks into people's hearts and minds then yes both the women and the abortionists should be tried for murder.



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    8. Where in the world did you get the idea that a fetus isn't human? That's a silly idea.

      I don't see anywhere in the definition that "says they are human beings." Can you quote that for me?

      You know who most often says a fetus is a "clump of cells?" Antichoicers do. I've yet to hear a prochoice person say that.

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    9. When did I say a fetus isn't human? YOU said in your last post that nothing scientifically proves they are human beings..I said actually a DNA test proves it. Glad you agree it was a silly idea.

      Women having very early abortions are led to believe it's just a clump of cells. Ya like someone against abortion is going to say that..sure.

      Anyway to get back to the original point...AGAIN..

      You really can't see it? Ok here goes..
      It says murder is the killing of a human being with intent etc and with no legal authority yes? Agreed? It then goes on to say that the death of an unborn child CAN BE MURDER ( provided there is premeditation and no legal authority) yes? Read the definition..that's what it says!!

      Therefore they are human beings according to this definition. Can you really not see that the definition doesn't question their humanity. No disrespect but your obvious avoidance of my question is getting exhausting.

      I'll try again...You said that what Hitler did wasn't ok because he was killing human beings, yes? Your definition says that abortion kills human beings. So why do you think that abortion is ok but what Hitler did wasn't?

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    10. A DNA test would also prove that my arm is human.

      Again... you and your fellow antichoicers are the only ones bringing up clump of cells talk. We use accurate language when we talk.

      It's interesting that you leave out the point that this would only apply after viability (aka quickening). So are you claiming that fetuses become human beings at viability?

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    11. "A DNA test would also prove that my arm is human." Yes and a human arm belongs to a human being!

      The definition says "death of an unborn child who is quick ( fetus is moving)." It doesn't say viability. A baby is first felt moving in the womb before viability from about 16-20 weeks. Abortion is legal at this point and beyond so that makes no difference to the point I'm making but nice try.

      (Even if it had said viability, viable babies with downs syndrome and other such fetal anomalies are aborted WELL after the time of viability.)

      So the definition you gave says that the death of unborn children who are "quick" can be murder (as long as there is premeditation and no legal authority, yes?) Therefore, these unborn children are human beings, since murder is the killing of human beings!

      So I'll try again...you said what Hitler did wasn't ok because he killed human beings, yes? The definition given by you says that abortion kills human beings. So why is one ok and not the other?

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    12. Btw just to be clear, i'm not claiming that fetuses only become human beings at quickening i.e 16-20 weeks. The definition (given by you) is. That's the whole point. So maybe now you can answer my question..

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    13. So you're trying to use a definition you don't even believe to convince me of something. Funny.

      Fetuses are not persons. Hitler murdered persons. They are nothing alike. You realize that survivors of the Holocaust actually get really upset when antichoicers compare the two?

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    14. The point is YOU believe the definition. YOU used it to try to convince something, not me. So why won't you stand over it?

      Yes it shows clearly that abortion is not murder under the current law. Fine. But it also shows clearly that an unborn child (who is quick) i.e 16-20 weeks, is a human being.

      Therefore you cannot deny the parrallel between Hitlers legal killing of human beings deemed " unworthy of life" and the legal killing of human beings by abortion. Both groups of victims were/are human beings, their killing sanctioned only because it was/is legal. Both sets of victims were/are dehumanised. Fact is abortion is a silent holocaust. Every 2-3 years abortion kills more than we're killed in the holocaust! You do the math..

      Even if it offends some, there are many holocaust survivors who actively oppose abortion because of the above points.

      Why is one ok and the other not? I get why you won't answer the question, because you can't show me anything that makes the two morally different, right?

      A blanket response like " Fetuses are not persons" just doesn't cut it when the legal definition (which you place so much trust in) so clearly doesn't question their humanity.

      Hmmm...tough one. Think it's time to find a new definition of murder, one that better suits your agenda.

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    15. Btw still waiting for your response to my question further down on this page dated Feb 10th@ 6:54am Guess I'll be waiting a while..

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    16. Actually, the reasons for abortion are moral, ethical and about rights. The reasons Hitler murdered thousands of people are none of those. I still don't understand how you can compare the two.

      The math is easy. Hitler killed thousands of human beings. Legal abortion saves thousands of lives. Why would anyone be against abortion?

      I think, also, that you forget about my Christianity.

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    18. Also, you said "the reasons for abortion are moral, ethical and about rights." Actually Hitlers reasons were also based on these.

      The reason Hitler murdered millions has everything to do with his moral and ethical views (evolutionary ethics, eugenics, racial supremacy).

      So there's another thing you have in common...a distorted view of morality, ethics and rights!

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    19. Hitler killed millions (not thousands btw) of innocent human beings. Similarly,legal abortion has killed millions of innocent human beings.

      All human beings are of equal value and all should have the right to life. There's a pretty good reason right there to oppose abortion..

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    20. As for forgetting about your christianity..I'll leave that to you. You seem to be doing a pretty good job of that yourself..

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    21. "Legal abortion saves thousands of lives." So are you saying you only support abortion to protect women's lives? No...thought not.

      You're advocacy of abortion has nothing to do with an interest in protecting women's lives. You support abortions which are carried out for any or no reason at all!! Abortion as a woman's right. To hell with the babies right to life. Nice morals. You also think it's ok that it's perfectly legal to abort disabled babies or babies with abnormalities.

      Did you know Hitler had a similar programme of "euthanasia" for people such this.

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    22. Would you please try to keep your comments all in one post? They're easier to respond to that way.

      Yes, abortion saves thousands, millions of lives. And that's a very good reason to be prochoice, but not my only reason.

      Fetuses do not have a right to life, and even if they did, abortion would still be legal and moral. Please actually read my blog if you want to learn more about that.

      You said, "You support abortions which are carried out for any or no reason at all!!"

      You are making things up about me. Why?

      Hitler's position was force- which is exactly what antichoicers want, to force women to give birth. Hitler thought he could make personal choices for other people too. Why are you trying to be like Hitler?

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    23. 1. Abortion saves millions of lives? Don't think so.. abortions to protect a mothers life account for less than 1% of all abortions.

      2. You say even if fetuses had a right to life it would still be legal. If fetuses had a right to life how could it possibly be legal to kill them? That makes no sense..

      3. You also say that even if fetuses had a right to life it would still be moral. How could it be moral to kill them if they have a right to life? Again, this makes no sense..

      4. Which blog would you like me to read..I'd be happy to do so and respond to it. "Fetuses right to life..irrelevant" perhaps? Another fine example of your sound christian values.

      5. Yes that's right I said "you support abortion for any or no reason at all" Correct me if I'm wrong.. are there any circumstances where you think abortion should be illegal?

      6. Thanks for pointing out another parallel between abortion and Nazi oppression. Force...abortion forces the death penalty on innocent human life. The right to life is the most basic right and should be protected first and foremost. It is morally unjustifiable that someone must die just so that another can avoid giving birth.

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    24. Just to clarify point 2...(sorry!)

      You said on your post "Fetuses do not have a right to life." Legally this is right, their lives are not protected under the law. Morally however, as human beings they always have a right to life.

      You then said "even if they DID abortion would still be legal and moral.

      If you meant "even if they did have a legal right to life" then it makes no sense to say that abortion would still be legal (since they would be protected under the law!)

      If you meant "even if they did have a moral right to life" then yes abortion still would be legal (It is..that's the issue!) But isn't it obvious that we shouldn't have laws that allow the killing of those who have a moral right to life.

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    25. Would really appreciate it if you'd respond to my post dated Feb 10th@6.54 am further down on this page...never got an answer from you. Thanks :-)

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  38. While Christians follow the law of the land, they know that God's law is higher and do not conform to laws that are so obviously morally wrong.

    Let me remind you that Jesus also said " Do unto others as you would do unto yourself."This is known as the golden rule and covers all of God's law. I think it's safe to say none of us would have chosen to be aborted.

    Many atheists are also anti abortion. This is because God in His wisdom gave each of us an in- built moral compass so we would know the difference between right and wrong. It's called your conscience!

    In your earlier post you said " I never said God was pro abortion" Now you said " I am not saying God is anti abortion." Clearly you are the one who is confused.

    Let's keep it simple this topic is about abortion, so enough of all the pro and anti choice nonsense. It's pro and anti abortion. Before you get offended let me tell you that I understand that pro abortion obviously doesn't mean you want to abort every pregnancy. It simply means you are in favour of abortion as an option available to women.

    What's wrong with using these terms instead of trying to confuse the issue by using double negatives like " not anti choice" etc

    You completely missed the point I was making about the Incarnation of Jesus. I'll let you read the posts again because I think I was very clear. I wasn't judging anyone's lifestyle or saying anything about single women having abortions. I'm well aware that women in all kinds of situations have abortions.

    Abortion is not mentioned directly in the bible because the concept would have been so abominable in that culture and at that time that it was unheard of.

    But I do want to direct you to the following scriptures. Isaiah 49:15,16
    Psalm 139:13-16
    Jeremiah 1:5

    By your own admission you hold greater esteem for man made laws than the laws of God. You regard state sanctioned murder as being acceptable. Maybe you could respond to my question about nazi Gernany?

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  39. In Isaiah 49:15,16 it is clear that God expects a woman to have compassion on the child of her womb. He is asking a rhetorical question! He says in the same scripture " Surley she may forget, but I will not forget you." This shows God's infinite wisdom and foreknowledge about sin. And also His love for all humans born and unborn.

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  40. Here us the full scripture I'm referring to.

    "Can a woman forget her nursing child,
    And not have compassion on the child of her womb?
    Surely they may forget,
    Yet I will not forget you.
    See, I have inscribed you on the palms of my hands"

    I appreciate it was late when you got my last post and it was quite long but I've made some valid points and I'd really appreciate it if you'd take the time to respond adequately to each one.

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  41. I would also like you to respond to my question about whether or not you believe God and Jesus are one ? This is a basic principle of the Christian faith, so as a Christian the answer should be a definite yes. If so, then how can God and Jesus have opposing views on abortion as stated in your earlier post? Maybe you made an error that's fine but just want to clear it up as it is important to the topic.

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  42. "Do unto others" is exactly why I'm prochoice. We are not just talking about abortion when we talk pro-choice. I'm sorry you can't see that.

    Abortions happened when Jesus was alive. As I am a Christian, I believe in the trinity. Please re-read my posts about the views I mentioned.

    Again, the law of God agrees with the law of man in terms of abortion. I'm not sure why so many antichoicers choose to misuse Bible passages to ignore that.

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  43. "We are not just talking about abortion when we talk pro choice." Hello? I'm not talking about "choice" here, I'm taking about abortion and more specifically about the absurdity of a " Christian" supporting abortion.

    When you start a blog with a silly title like "Liiving as a pro choice Christian", you should expect to be challenged.

    Being Christian and supporting abortion don't go together. It's a bit of a no brainer that a God of love, mercy and grace does not support ripping babies from their mother's wombs. Even non believers know it is wrong and acknowledge that it is sin in the eyes of God. And I'm having to explain this to a fellow Christian?!?

    Let's be clear here we are not talking about zygotes when it comes to abortion. We are talking about the embryonic stage (2-7 weeks) and most often the fetal stage ( after 8 weeks). I suggest you research the development of the unborn child. Pregnancy and birth truly are a miracle.

    "Behold children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb is a reward." Psalm 127:3
    Are you as a "Christian" really going to argue with God's word?!?

    The pro abortion team uses a very convenient definition of murder don't you think? Just more word play from team death. It doesn't change the fact that every abortion kills a human being i.e it is murder.

    Just like Hitler, pro abortionists say it is ok because it is legal. And just like Hitler dehumanised the Jews, the pro abortionists even try to dehumanise the unborn to justify what they are doing. Can't you see this?

    And by the way abortions didn't happen when Jesus was on the earth. Child sacrifice, which I suppose is technically the same thing, is mentioned in the old testament but it was practised by pagans NOT godly people. They sacrificed their children to Molech a god of convenience. Interesting don't you think?

    Maybe you like the idea of being called Christian. Maybe you like going to church on Sundays, probably makes you feel good. There is so much more to being a Christian than believing in Jesus, in who He is and what He has done. Even the devil believes that!!

    Being a Christian means being a true follower of Jesus and living out your faith by submitting your life and your will to the will of God which is revealed to us through the bible and through relationship with Him. No truly born again believer filled with the Holy Spirit supports abortion.

    "Have nothing to do with the unfruitful works of darkness but rather expose them."
    Ephesians 5:11

    I pray that God in His mercy will pour out His grace into your heart and bring you out of the darkness and spiritual blindness that you are in.

    Please pay heed to the first command Jesus gave when He began His ministry. " Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

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    1. Abortions predate Jesus by many thousands of years, just like birth control. And the practice was alive and well during Jesus' time...

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    2. Whatever, still doesn't change the fact that it is sin, murder. You pro choice "Christians" need to dust off your bibles.

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    3. There are lots of things that Jesus didn't mention directly during his ministry, like rape, incest etc That doesn't mean He condones those things! Can you really picture Jesus changing careers and performing abortions? Sorry I just don't see it.

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  44. "Woe to those who call evil good and good evil;
    Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
    Isaiah 5:20

    Repent of your pagan lifestyle.

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  45. "Do unto others is exactly why I am pro choice." You wrote that.

    So unborn children are not considered
    "others "???

    See that's exactly what I mean about pro abortionists trying to dehumanise the unborn to justify abortion.

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  46. I wish you well in 2013 and I will keep you in my prayers. I ask any other believers who come across this blog to do the same. God bless you all :-)


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  47. Just felt to share this last scripture with you. I love this one. Blows liberal Christianity right out of the water :-)

    "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
    Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."

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    1. Seeing how you believe most Christians are antichoice, wouldn't my prochoice gate be narrower? :-)

      Have a great new year.

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  48. Wrong once again. ALL Christians are anti abortion (not most). So the only gates you'll be going through are the gates of hell unless you repent.

    Humble yourself before Jesus and repent of your sins. He loves you and He is always ready to forgive.

    God bless you.

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  49. Oh wow, I have NEVER seen so many people who blindly followed something like this before. You dismiss science for a book written by man.
    This just makes me want to be a Satanist. That's how bad all of this is.
    I wouldn't even be surprised if every one of you are Intactivists as well. Or maybe into redefining the definition of rape? How about that?
    I mean no insults...but your supposed "God" scares me.

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    1. Hold up, are you not the same anon that said earlier you were a Christian?? If not sorry my mistake just going by the dates on the posts.

      Nobody is dismissing science. The bible actually supports science. And anyway I don't get why you are so shocked that a Christian would place that much value on the bible. As Christians we believe that scripture is the word of God. Fair enough if you're not a Christian then I understand you would find that strange but please be respectful of others beliefs.

      Also, why does God scare you? Just curious.

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  50. Don't get the comment about probably being intactivists or redefining the definition of rape. Why you would think that and how are they relevant to the topic?

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  51. Funny how you are so shocked that a Christian would believe strongly in the authority of the bible yet it doesn't shock you at all that a Christian would support abortion. Scary how things have become so twisted. Just something to think about.

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  52. I am shocked that the "pro abortion christian" can't get the fact he/she continues to call anti abortion/prolife proponants "anti choice".Does this somehow make you feel better about your stand? Do you now feel "justified" because it puts a negative view on pro life ? I would also ask regarding the legallity of killing children if you are"ok" with the killing King Harrod ordered when Jesus was born? That was "legal" because he was king, are you ok with that?
    I will not judge "if" you are a christian or not because that is ONLY Gods right! However I will judge my fellow brother/sister in love if they are living in sin.

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    1. Using the term antichoice is about facts, not how I feel. Antichoicers often support war and the death penalty, as well as self-defense killings. They are not prolife, they are just antichoice.

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    2. Fine, abortion is the issue so let's narrow it down to pro and anti abortion and stop with all the nonsense word play.

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    3. I think you use the term Antichoice to deliberately antagonise those who oppose your views. It's like if I constantly referred to you as anti life would you be happy with that? Would it be an accurate term for you? No. So could you please have the same respect for us.

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  53. I agree with you on one point, we ALL have the right to choose.
    The differance between the believer and the world is we choose to give up our right to continue sinning and CHOOSE to do whats right no matter how hard it is! I can CHOOSE to hate my neighbor who has done me harm or I can CHOOSE to love him.
    As much as much as the human side of me is disgusted with the drs who perform abortions,I still love them and value them!

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    1. Anon, abortion isn't a sin. I agree that sin is bad, and we should not choose to sin. But that has nothing to do with avoiding abortion.

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  54. So do you support abortion right up to full term of pregnancy?

    Do you think partial birth abortion is not a sin? Or what about leaving born alive babies who survive abortions, to die? Is that not sin? Where do you draw the line, when does human life become valuable?

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    1. I support elective abortion until viability and abortions necessary to save a woman's life/health as long as her doctor deems it necessary.

      I think "partial birth abortion" doesn't exist. It is a term made up by conservative politicians to scare the general public about abortion. There is already a federal law that says hospitals and their staff must do whatever they can to save any newborn.

      Human life is always valuable.

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    2. Ok, first off I don't get your last statement that "human life is always valuable". This is not compatible with the pro choice position. Please explain.

      You said you support elective abortion up to viability i.e about 24 weeks. Then you went on to say "abortions necessary to save a woman's life/health.

      In regard to a woman's health, in Doe v Bolton, in which abortion was made legal through all nine months of pregnancy, health was defined as " any condition that might impact her physical, emotional, psychological or financial wellbeing." in other words abortion can be obtained at any time and for whatever reason.

      So basically you support abortion through all stages of pregnancy, yes?

      Yes there is a federal law against leaving babies to die, but only since 2002. Prior to that, abortion survivors were left to die a slow death, in soiled utility rooms. This is still happening in Canada btw all perfectly legal. If Obama had his way it would still be happening in the U.S. He voted against the Act while he was a senator in Illinois. This is a man who claims to have Christian values.

      HOW can you say"human life is always valuable" yet you support abortion. At what pointof cording to you do the unborn become human, and therefore valuable?

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    3. Btw partial birth abortion does exist. I'm really surprised that you think it is a made up term. The Partial Birth Abortion Act was signed into law by Bush in 2003.

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    5. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    6. Also, why do you think the term would "scare" the general public? Maybe you would prefer the use of it's medical term (Intact dilation and extraction, D&X). Does that sit better with you?

      It doesn't change the reality of the procedure you know, just different words ! But as long as we're not scaring anyone that's the important thing..

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    7. Abortion is not available for any and all reasons after viability. It has to be for a serious medical condition. Doctors will not perform elective abortions after viability.

      Do you think women wake up one day, 8 months pregnant, and just decide to abort? No. Women in this situation have a wanted pregnancy, where something goes terribly wrong and they have to make a choice.

      I'm unsure of when it became a law to care for infants, but I doubt it was only in 2002. Obama voted against the Illinois act because it was already illegal, and the act in IL was just an attempt to ban abortion.

      I support abortion because I value human life- all human life, not just fetal life.

      As for partial birth abortion; just because Bush signed a law doesn't make it real. Conservative antichoicers made up the term to scare the public and make abortion look horrible. Now abortions are still performed, just sometimes they are performed in ways that are less safe for the woman.

      You might want to read this article, which includes the stories of women who would be DEAD today if the law had gone into affect earlier. http://womensenews.org/story/campaign-trail/041028/late-term-abortion-saved-these-womens-lives

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    8. So presidents are signing laws banning imaginary things now? Information on the partial birth abortion ban is widely available. You should look it up. And what does it matter that it's called " partial birth" abortion, it is what it is.

      Btw nobody has to " try" to make abortion look horrible. It just is.

      And yes it was in 2002 that the born alive infant protection act was signed into law by Presidentt Bush. Again, this info is widely available. Before that abortion survivors were left to die, hence the need for the protection act.

      Most states have restrictions on late term abortions. But there are 9 states with no restrictions on post viability abortion. So there are some late term abortion providers. The states that do restrict abortion must provide it to protect a woman's life or health. For the vast majority of states this includes mental health.

      How can abortion ever be "necessary" post viability. If the baby is viable then it can survive outsude the womb. You said " something goes terribly wrong and they have to make a choice." Maybe they find out their baby has a special need or some kind of abnormality, maybe it may not live long after birth etc Do you support abortion in those or similar circumstances? Surely anything is better than subjecting a baby to a late term abortion.

      And can you tell me at what point, according to you do the unborn become human and therefore valuable? You said " Human life is always valuable". Please explain.

      Haven't read the article yet but I will look it up.

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    9. Just read the story about Tammy Watts. She had a partial birth abortion. That doesn't mean she or any other woman would have DIED had it been banned!

      There are other methods of late term abortion like D&E or intra-cardiac injections that stop the fetal heartbeat, followed by a D&E.

      The article also says that the ban is vaguely worded and could be used to outlaw any type of abortion. This is nonsense, have you read the actual wording of the ban?

      Btw partial birth abortion ban is not enforced in all states due to constitutional challenges and there are varying exceptions to protect the life/ health of the mother in all states where the ban is enforced. I got that info from the guttmacher institute's article called "bans on partial birth abortions" if you want to look it up for a more detailed account.

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    10. The only reason Partial birth abortion (or D&X, whichever you like to call it) was banned is because it is basically infanticide. Saying this, it is a much more humane method of late abortion than the currently legal D&E. While all abortion is barbaric, at least with D&X the baby dies a fairly quick death.



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    11. Abortions are carried out post viability and it's not just for serious medical conditions. Check out this abortion clinics website ;

      "Boulder Abortion Clinic" in Boulder, Colorado.

      Dr Warren Hern specialises in late term abortions. Note it says on the website that patients coming in seeking abortion after 24 weeks gestation are "almost always" doing so because the pregnancy has developed serious complications. "Almost always" meaning there are some late term elective abortions. This is because the current law does not restrict a woman from procuring an abortion for practically any reason during the entire months of pregnancy.

      Yes, most abortions are carried out in the early stages of pregnancy but elective abortions can actually happen in the third trimester. You said "women are not waking up one day 8 months pregnant and deciding to abort." Fair enough, but some women do wait until late second trimester and into the third trimester before they have decided, others change their minds with changing circumstances and for various reasons. Like the clinics website says " almost always" it is for medical reasons, but it can and does happen for other reasons.

      Also, consider the fact that "viability" is at the discretion of doctors and can range from about 20 weeks up to as far as 27 weeks depending on who is making that judgement. Anything past 20 weeks is considered late term, and babies are definitely viable before 27 weeks. Doctors are free to make this judgement because again, there is nothing in law restricting them.

      Can you get back to me on my earlier question on the humanity of the unborn and when they become valuable etc? Thanks :-)







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    12. "Almost always" for pregnancy complications doesn't mean the rest are elective. Like I said, it's illegal to have an elective abortion after viability. With all the focus on late term abortions, don't you think if he was breaking the law, that antis would be filing charges?

      Not sure what your questions were re: valuable and humanity. Please post them again if you'd like me to take a look at them.

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    13. That's just it, he's not breaking the law. There are no post viability restrictions in the state of Colorado. Have a look through the clinics website. I also read in the comments section "Whatever your reasons we don't judge." If you don't believe me on the legality of it look it up for yourself on guttmacher institute.org Lots of info/stats tables on there.

      You said in an earlier post "Human life is always valuable." The question was at what point according to you do the unborn become human and therefore valuable? Is it after a specific gestational age or is it dependent on whether the pregnancy is wanted or not etc? Thanks.

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    15. If you look up the abortion law tables on guttmacher institute.org you will see that most states put "viability" as the point at which they restrict abortion. This could mean anything ranging from 20-27 weeks, it's at the discretion of the doctors/clinics involved. It is actually unconstitutional for states to limit it to a particular gestational age eg. 20/24 weeks as some states do.

      You will see that some put third trimester as their limit, this means up to about 26 weeks (I think you'll agree this is definitely post viability!)9 states, Colorado being one of them, have NO gestational/viability limits. They have a right to do this because although under the current abortion law, states have a right to restrict abortion post "viability", they are not obliged to do so.

      So with no restrictions in 9 states, a third trimester limit in a couple more and viability not written in stone in all the others, we can conclude that there ARE healthy, viable babies being aborted in the US.

      I was being pretty generous earlier when I said viability was about 24 weeks. With todays medical and technological advances babies are surviving premature birth weeks before this. My friend had her baby girl at 23 weeks and she is now a healthy 11 year old, praise God. Do you think her life was valuable the day before she was born, while she was still in her mother's womb?


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    16. Do you think God loved her and valued her while she was in her mother's womb? Or does He love some people and not others?

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    17. I really don't understand your focus on abortion after viability. It's the tiniest percentage, made up of women with wanted pregnancies who had something go terribly wrong. Why are you trying to hurt them even more?

      You asked "When do the unborn become human?" I answer: a human zygote or embryo is always human. They don't change species. I think zygotes and embryos are always valuable.

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    18. I'm not focused on abortion after viabity, I think all abortion is equally as wrong because I value all human life including the unborn. I asked you if you supported abortion in all stages of pregnancy to see if you support the killing of healthy viable babies. Nothing about abortion gor pregnancy complications. The only reason this went on for so long is because I had to go on to explain the legality of abortion. I also took the time to look up the article you directed me to and to respond to it.

      So you value all human zygotes, embryos, fetuses etc? What, have you turned from your prochoice position? If they are always valuable human beings then how can you say there's nothing at all wrong with abortion?

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    20. Or to put it more directly, should valuable human beings have the right to life ?

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    21. So are you telling me that when my friend gave birth to her daughter at 23 weeks, she wasn't a human being?

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    22. Of course your friend was a human being!

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    23. Why are you avoiding the question? Of course I'm talking about her baby daughter, you know that.

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    24. When your friend's daughter was born, she was a human being.

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    25. So a change of environment makes her a human being? That's a hollow argument. There is absolutely no scientific basis for what your saying.

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    26. It seems you've made up what I'm saying before I even say it. So of course you think it's hollow.

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    27. It seems you don't have an answer. Why don't you say what you're saying instead of me having to drag everything out of you.

      There is no scientific difference between human and human being. No difference at all. These two terms are interchangeable.

      If you are talking about the spiritual aspect of when a persons soul/ spirit enters their physical body, there is nothing to say that this happens at birth! That is just an opinion. In fact from a biblical viewpoint, there is much in scripture that tells us the unborn human is a person.

      Scientifically, we know for certain that life begins at the beginning, at conception. We cannot prove/know scientifically what is going on in the spiritual. But we do know, thanks to modern technology, that a fetus is conscious/sentient from about 20 weeks onward. This would indicate the existence of a soul/spirit.

      There is an interesting scripture in James. "As the body without the soul is dead, so faith without works is dead also." Listen to that- the body without the soul is dead ! The body of the developing fetus is not dead while it is growing in the mother's womb. As we read in James, for the body to be dead it must be without a soul ! Therefore, the living, developing fetus must have a soul i.e it is a person.

      Remember also, how John the Baptist "leapt for joy" in his mother's womb. Only a living being, a person can leap for joy. I could go on but you get the picture.

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    28. Well let's have it....you've had plenty of time to think about it. How is it that the moment before she was born she was just a human fetus, not a person at all but when she was born she became a living human being, a person? If it's not the change of environment then what is it ?

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    29. I was sure you'd come up with something by now given the amount of time and energy you put into churning out pro abortion drivel that you find on the Internet.

      I've had a read through a lot of your other blogs on this subject. I have to say the sheer volume of them is astounding. Why are you so obsessed with abortion? Also, you seem to have a lot of bitterness and hatred towards people who oppose your views. The way you talk about "antichoicers" as you call them, is extremely disrespectful. Why is that?

      I came across this written by you on one of your blogs "Even if the fetus is a living person, it can be aborted. Alright? Get it?." So it's ok to kill innocent human beings. You say yes as long as it's legal. That's lovely. Really ties in with your whole "I value human life, all human life" statement from earlier. And before you go on about war, the death penalty blah blah etc etc let me remind you that we are talking about abortion. Intentional killing of INNOCENT human beings. Totally different. While I don't necessarily support war, I acknowledge that it IS sometimes necessary. Yes, innocent civilians unfortunately get killed in wars. But it is not the intent to kill those individuals. When it is, we have military courts to deal with the guilty parties, and rightly so.

      Honestly I can find absolutely nothing Christian about you. I know atheists who are more Christlike than you. Nothing in your blogs reflects Christian values or a christian perspective. Nothing. Your views are purely secular. You have been exposed over and over again on your blogs.

      You believe in Jesus. So what? That doesn't make you a Christian. Interesting that the scripture in James is the one that came to mind to share with you earlier. "As the body without the soul is dead, so faith without works is dead also." James says that faith which does not manifest into good works is DEAD. James is talking about real faith, saving faith and how it will be evident in the things that we do and in our attitudes and our actions. Christians do not support abortion.

      Check out what God's word has to say about killing innocent human beings in Proverbs 6:16-17













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  55. I thought you were against judging others? Yet you are willing to lump all prolife believers into and group you freely judge as "antichoice" and that they are not "prolife they are antichoice"
    How have you concluded that? Simply because they disagree with YOUR view? doesnt that make you antichoice if everybody has to believe as you do in order to not be labeled this way?
    I would apreciate it if you would answer my question about Herrod please?

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    1. Stating facts isn't judging. If you support the death penalty, how can you claim to be "prolife from conception to natural death" as is often stated?

      In the end, they're just the words I choose to use. I don't have the power to actually name things and have society at large follow my word choice. So feel free to use which ever words you like.

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  56. I also would point out that "killing in self defense " is in line with YOUR thinking. It is legal to so why would you have a problem with that? I think most of those who are killed are deemed "unwanted" bt society so why not abort them too?

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    1. Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy. While "abort" has multiple uses (to abort a mission, for instance), we can't technically abort a person because they don't exist in the womb.

      You are asking why not murder people who are unwanted, and I answer: because it's a violation of their rights.

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    2. So, as a Christian, in your mind, a child in the womb has no rights because they do not exist as a person? You do believe in God's word, the Bible? If so, I believe you misinterpret God's word:

      Psalm 139:13-16 = HUMAN LIFE before birth and the unborn's future anticipated.

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  57. I was LOUDLY and ADAMANTLY pro-life...until I accompanied a friend who had to make this heartbreaking decision (even though it was for medical reasons it was still heartbreaking nonetheless) without any emotional support. Have any of you pro-lifers ever been in an abortion clinic? It is the most heart-wrenching experience I have ever gone through...and I wasn't even the one having to go through the procedure!! I cried for 4 1/2hrs just from reading all the journals strewn around the waiting room. The stories anonymously written by young girls being forced by their parents to 'get rid' of their babies, stories tearfully written by grandmothers who were never going to know their grandchildren because their husbands refused to be shamed by their daughters, paragraphs from young dads who were silently relieved that they would be able to finish school but so sad at the same time. The stories that made me sob were the ones written by women of domestic abuse begging for their babies' forgiveness...women who felt that if they went through with their pregnancies, they would be stuck forever their relationships being sexually and physically abused by their husbands. I chatted with the others sitting with me and heard their stories. Surprisingly, not one of them offered any inkling that their decisions were arrived at easily...as so many pro-lifers convince themselves they are. As I walked out with my friend late that afternoon, a young girl was sitting on the front step having a cigarette before her counselling session. She looked up and smiled at us through her tears and black swollen eye. I smiled back and silently vowed never to EVER EVER EVER again believe that I had the right to make decisions for ANYONE else. That's what pisses me off about this movement...I am PRO CHOICE, not pro abortion. I hate abortions as much as pro lifers do, but I do NOT have the right to make decisions for anyone but ME!!

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    1. Amen. When anyone is confronted with the truth of abortion, they will either see it for what it is or harden their heart. Even when it is a necessary alternative, it is heart-wrenching. What bothers me most is that my tax dollars support abortion to the tune of $500,000,000 per year to Planned Parenthood. And I have no choice in the matter. This is tyranny at its worst.

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  58. http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/personhood_apple.htm

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  59. mmmm So if i put u under general anesthesia it would be fine and legal killing you .... since you are not feeling the pain ??

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  60. Understandably, there are times that abortion is a viable option, but abortions are occurring at the rate of 4000 each and every day in America (murders by guns are at 84 per day). Those who wish to choose death in the manner of abortion as to normalize it have not God's Holy Spirit, nor do they have His truth or His Son. What does God tell us in His Holy Bible?:

    For you (God) formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed substance (tissue); in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them. Psalm 139:13-16 = HUMAN LIFE before birth and the future anticipated.

    Argue with the One Who made you if you disagree.

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